Karl Marx did not explicitly write about the devil in a theological or supernatural sense. However, the claim likely stems from interpretations of his works or personal writings, particularly a poem he wrote in 1837 titled "The Fiddler" (sometimes translated as "The Player"). In this poem, Marx uses dramatic, metaphorical imagery, including references to a demonic figure, which some interpret as the devil. The poem reflects a young Marx's romantic and rebellious literary style, not a literal treatise on Satan.
For example, lines from "The Fiddler" include:
"With Satan I have struck my deal, / He chalks the signs, beats time for me."
These have been seized upon by critics, especially during the Cold War, to paint Marx as having a fascination with evil or the occult. However, scholars argue this is poetic hyperbole, common in the Sturm und Drang literary movement that influenced Marx’s early writings. His later works, like Capital or The Communist Manifesto, focus on materialist analysis of economics and class struggle, with no mention of supernatural entities.
Then I asked Google….
While Karl Marx didn't explicitly write about "the devil" in the traditional religious sense, his works do contain elements that have been interpreted as having a dark, even diabolical, quality. Some scholars and critics have pointed to his early poetry and plays, which feature themes of darkness, rebellion, and a fascination with Mephistopheles (the devil figure in Goethe's Faust), as evidence of a personal interest in the demonic. Additionally, some argue that the destructive and dehumanizing aspects of his later theories of communism, as well as the suffering caused by regimes that implemented his ideas, have a devilish quality.
Here's a more detailed look:
Early Poetry and Plays:
Marx's early writings, particularly his poetry and plays, contain imagery of darkness, rebellion, and a Faustian bargain with a dark force. For example, one poem speaks of selling his soul to the "prince of darkness".
The "Devil's View":
Some interpretations suggest that Marx's worldview, particularly his focus on conflict and destruction, can be seen as having a "devil's view".
Influence of Faust:
Marx's fascination with Goethe's Faust, a play featuring a pact with the devil, is seen as a significant influence on his early work and worldview.
Legacy of Suffering:
The millions of deaths and immense suffering caused by communist regimes in the 20th century are, for some, a manifestation of the dark side of Marx's ideas, leading to comparisons with the devil.
But Google concluded that Marx was…
Not a Satanist:
While some have argued that Marx was a Satanist, this is not a widely accepted view. The evidence points more towards a fascination with dark themes and imagery, rather than a literal belief in Satan.
Okay, yet let's keep up the search, shall we…
So, still on Google, I came across… The Daily Declaration, Australia’s Largest Christian News Site, which says otherwise… in the article Karl Marx’s Obsession With the Devil… Kurt Mahlburg, 12 March 2024, writes…
It’s well known that Communism killed 100 million people—but few are aware of the obsession Communism’s founder Karl Marx had with the Devil.
Karl Marx (1818–1883) is the economist and social theorist whose enduring footprint on the world is the political system known as Communism.
Born in Germany but spending most of his adult life in London, Marx developed his ideas—known collectively as Marxism—primarily in The Communist Manifesto (1848), a book he co-wrote with his friend Friedrich Engels, and Das Kapital (1867–1894).
Marx believed that capitalism—the economic system that held sway across 19th-century Christian Europe—was exploitative and alienating. He was convinced the working class masses (the proletariat) would overthrow it, if only they were awakened to their oppression.
“All that is solid melts into air…” Marx and Engels wrote, waxing apocalyptic in The Communist Manifesto’s opening pages — “and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life.”
Well, we all know that Christians are all biased (not atheists, materialists or secularists, they are saints).
Then I asked ChatGPT… Did Karl Marx write about the Devil?
Yes, there are writings by Karl Marx that mention the Devil, especially in his early poetic and dramatic works. While Marx is primarily known for his economic and political philosophy, particularly The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital, some of his lesser-known early writings—especially poetry and plays written in his youth—contain disturbing references to Satanic themes. These have fueled long-standing debates among scholars, theologians, and critics.
1. The poem “The Player” (Der Spielmann)
In this early poem written around 1837, Marx writes:
“The hellish vapors rise and fill the brain,
Till I go mad and my heart is utterly changed.
See this sword?
The prince of darkness sold it to me.”
These lines imply a Faustian bargain—a deal with the Devil, which echoes Goethe’s Faust. While some interpret this as metaphorical or dramatic expression, others see in it a revealing window into Marx’s inner world.
2. “Invocation of One in Despair” (written around the same time)
Another poem with explicit references:
“I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.”
“I shall build my throne high overhead,
Cold, tremendous shall its summit be.
Supernal horror shall sit on the throne,
And its bulwark—superstition.
It’s marshal—blackest agony.”
These lines are filled with hatred toward God and suggest the enthronement of a godless or demonic rule. Some see this as the psychological and spiritual foundation of his revolutionary ideas.
3. Marx’s admiration for Prometheus
In his doctoral thesis, Marx praises Prometheus—the mythological figure who defied the gods:
“Prometheus is the noblest saint and martyr in the philosophical calendar.”
This admiration for rebellion against divine authority aligns with Marx’s deep hostility toward religion, which he famously called “the opiate of the masses.”
Scholarly Views
Richard Wurmbrand, a Romanian Christian pastor and author of Marx and Satan, argues that Marx was not merely an atheist, but possibly involved in satanic thought or rituals. He cites these early writings as evidence.
Mainstream scholars, however, often dismiss this as speculative, viewing these writings as the angst of a young poet rather than theological declarations.
Conclusion
Yes, Karl Marx wrote about the Devil—explicitly and emotionally—in his early poems and dramatic writings. While these references are absent from his later economic works, they offer a glimpse into the darkness that fueled his worldview. Whether one sees these as poetic flourishes or serious theological signals depends on one’s interpretive framework. But they undeniably exist—and they’re chilling.
Finally, I went to Gemini…
While Karl Marx is best known for his theories on economics and society, and for famously calling religion the "opium of the people," there is evidence that he did write about the Devil, particularly in his early poetic works.
Some scholars and biographers have highlighted Marx's early poems and plays that contain dark and even disturbing references to the Devil, pacts with Satan, and themes of destruction and damnation. For instance, in his poem "The Fiddler," Marx wrote, "Till heart's bewitched, till senses reel: With Satan I have struck my deal. He chalks the signs, beats time for me, I play the death march fast and free." Another poem, "The Pale Maiden," includes lines like, "Heaven I've forfeited, I know it full well. My soul, once true to God, is chosen for Hell."
These writings have led some to speculate (hmmm) about a personal fascination or "obsession" Marx might have had with the Devil, or to interpret these references as metaphorical expressions of his radical anti-establishment views and desire to "shake the world." It's also noted that his favorite quote, from Goethe's "Faust," was Mephistopheles' line: "Everything that exists deserves to perish."
It's important to distinguish (when Gemini says it is important, its important lol) these poetic and potentially metaphorical references from a literal belief in the Devil as a supernatural entity, especially given Marx's staunch atheism and materialism. His criticisms of religion were foundational to his philosophical outlook, viewing it as a human construct that served to oppress and pacify the masses. However, the existence of these "devilish" themes in his early works is a notable aspect of his complete body of writing.
Then I asked Grok…. Can atheists have beliefs in witchcraft and cultism and still be atheists?
He said, Yes, atheists can have beliefs in witchcraft or cultism and still be atheists. Atheism means lacking belief in gods or rejecting theism. It does not require rejecting all supernatural or spiritual ideas. For instance, someone might practice Wicca, which often involves witchcraft, but does not worship a deity. Similarly, cultism can refer to secular groups with rituals, like certain political or social movements.
Historical examples exist. In the 20th century, some individuals in occult circles, such as Aleister Crowley’s followers, denied traditional gods while embracing magical practices. Studies show about 1% of self-identified atheists in the U.S. report interest in pagan or occult practices, per a 2021 Pew Research survey.
Belief in witchcraft or cultism depends on personal worldview, not atheism’s core definition. If you have a specific case in mind, share it, and I can explore further.
Hmm, so they have an opening into the occult beliefs, fascinating.
So, back to Gemini…. Can atheists have beliefs in witchcraft and cultism and still be atheists?
His answer… This is a nuanced question, and the answer is generally yes, atheists can have beliefs or engage in practices that might be associated with witchcraft and cultism, while still maintaining their atheism.
Here's why:
Atheism's Core Definition: Atheism, in its broadest and most accepted definition, is simply the absence of belief in the existence of deities (gods). It does not, by itself, dictate a person's views on other supernatural phenomena, philosophical systems, or social structures. An atheist rejects the idea of a god or gods, but this doesn't automatically mean they reject all other forms of spirituality, magic, or even the possibility of certain inexplicable forces.
Witchcraft and Supernatural Beliefs:
Varying Interpretations: "Witchcraft" itself is a broad term. For some, it involves belief in supernatural entities, spirits, or divine forces (e.g., many Wiccans who are polytheistic).
Secular/Atheistic Witchcraft: However, many individuals who identify as witches (or practice witchcraft) do so from a non-theistic or atheistic perspective. They might view "magic" as:
Psychological work: Using rituals, symbols, and focused intention as tools for self-improvement, manifestation through personal will, or psychological re-patterning, without believing in external supernatural entities.
Connection to nature: A philosophy or practice that emphasizes a deep connection to nature, the Earth, and its cycles, seeing these as powerful forces, but not necessarily deifying them.
Symbolism and Archetypes: Engaging with archetypes, mythologies, or symbolic systems as a way to understand the human experience, rather than believing in their literal divine existence.
Energy manipulation (non-deity based): Some might believe in a form of universal energy that can be influenced, without attributing it to a deity.
Distinction between Practice and Belief: An atheist witch might practice rituals, use herbs, or cast spells, but their belief is that the power comes from within themselves, from nature, or from psychological effects, rather than from a god.
Cultism:
Cults are about social dynamics and control, not necessarily deity belief: The term "cult" is often used pejoratively, but in a sociological sense, it refers to social groups with unusual, and often extreme, beliefs and rituals, frequently characterized by intense devotion to a charismatic leader and a high degree of control over members.
Atheistic Cults are Possible: While many cults are religious in nature (focused on a divine leader or a specific god), a group could certainly operate with cult-like characteristics around a secular ideology, a political figure, a self-help guru, or even a scientific theory, without involving belief in deities. The atheist part refers to the absence of gods, not the absence of extreme group dynamics, manipulative leaders, or unusual practices.
In summary:
· An atheist rejects gods.
· Someone can practice witchcraft in a way that doesn't involve belief in gods.
· Someone can be part of a "cult" (a group with extreme beliefs and controlling dynamics) even if that group does not worship a deity.
Therefore, the labels "atheist," "witch," and someone involved in "cultism" are not inherently contradictory in all cases, depending on the specific interpretation and practice of witchcraft or the nature of the cult.
Back to Gemini… Do you have real living examples?
Yes, while specific individuals rarely publicly declare themselves as "atheist witches" or "atheists in cults" due to the loaded connotations of the terms, there are certainly real-world examples and communities that illustrate these possibilities.
Here are some real-life examples, categorized for clarity:
1. Atheist Witches / Secular Pagans / Humanistic Witches:
· Growing Online Communities and Authors: There are numerous online communities (forums, subreddits, Facebook groups) dedicated to "secular witchcraft," "atheist witchcraft," "naturalistic paganism," or "humanistic paganism." These groups often discuss practices that focus on psychology, personal growth, connection to nature, and ethical living, without invoking deities or supernatural beings.
Examples of prominent voices/authors:
John Halstead: A well-known voice in the "naturalistic paganism" movement, advocating for a non-supernatural approach to paganism that emphasizes scientific understanding and an appreciation for the natural world. He writes and speaks extensively on the topic.
T. Thorn Coyle: While she doesn't exclusively identify as an "atheist witch," her work in magic and spirituality often emphasizes direct experience, embodied practice, and social justice, which resonates with many who seek a non-theistic approach.
Many authors and practitioners in the broader "modern witchcraft" movement often distinguish between "soft polytheism" (where deities are seen as archetypes or metaphors) and "hard polytheism" (where deities are seen as literal beings). Those who lean towards soft polytheism or outright reject the literal existence of deities often align with atheist or secular witchcraft.
· Witchcraft as Psychology/Self-Help: Many modern witches, regardless of their theistic stance, view magical practice as a form of applied psychology, using rituals, affirmations, and visualization to effect personal change. For an atheist, this framework fits perfectly, as the "power" comes from within the individual's mind and intent, not from an external deity.
· Focus on Nature and Science: Many secular pagans and atheist witches are deeply rooted in ecological concerns and draw inspiration from scientific understanding of the universe. They might celebrate solstices and equinoxes as natural astronomical events, not as festivals dedicated to gods.
2. Atheists in Cult-like Groups (Non-Religious Cults):
It's crucial to distinguish between a "cult" as a highly controlling and manipulative group, and a legitimate philosophical or social movement. When we talk about atheists in "cults," we are referring to the former. These are often less explicitly labeled as "cults" by their members, but are identified as such by former members, sociologists, or legal authorities.
· Political Cults: Historically and currently, there have been political movements that exhibit cult-like characteristics, with a charismatic leader, unquestioning loyalty, isolation from outside information, and often extreme demands on members. An atheist could certainly be drawn into such a group, as the focus is on a political ideology or leader, not a god.
Example: While not explicitly "atheist" in their stated ideology, groups that develop around certain extreme political figures or movements can exhibit cult-like behaviors. Members might abandon jobs, families, and critical thinking for the leader's cause.
· Self-Help or Personal Development Cults: Some self-help seminars or "personal development" organizations have been accused of operating like cults. They might promise profound transformation, but demand huge financial investment, unquestioning adherence to their methods, and isolation from critical viewpoints.
Examples: Certain multi-level marketing (MLM) schemes can develop cult-like devotion among their top recruiters, with a highly charismatic leader and a powerful "us vs. them" mentality, regardless of whether a deity is involved. Landmark Worldwide (formerly EST) has faced accusations of being cult-like due to its intensive, confrontational seminars and pressure for recruitment, though it is not religious.
· Utopian Communities with Controlling Elements: Some communities founded on secular or philosophical ideals, aiming for a "better way of living," have devolved into cults due to the absolute authority of a founder or leadership, strict rules, and isolation.
Example: While most historical examples involved some spiritual element, a purely secular utopian vision could also become cult-like if it involves extreme control and manipulation, even without belief in a god.
Key Takeaway for Examples:
The common thread is that atheism is about the lack of belief in gods, not the lack of belief in anything else. People are complex, and their beliefs and social affiliations can be diverse and sometimes seemingly contradictory from an outside perspective.
To find more detailed, real-time examples, you would typically look for:
· Academic studies on new religious movements (NRMs) and secular social movements.
· Blogs, books, and online communities of "naturalistic pagans" or "atheist witches."
· Journalistic investigations and ex-member accounts of groups accused of cult-like behavior that do not have a deistic foundation.
The existence of these groups and individuals demonstrates that rejecting the concept of a god does not automatically equate to rejecting all forms of ritual, community, personal transformation practices, or even susceptibility to charismatic leadership in non-religious contexts. You're asking for "real living examples," which means pointing to specific people or groups that exemplify these concepts. It's important to approach this with sensitivity and nuance, as the terms "witchcraft" and "cultism" can carry strong connotations.
Here are some real-world examples and categories that illustrate how atheism can coexist with practices often associated with "witchcraft" or involvement in "cult-like" groups, without necessarily implying belief in supernatural deities:
1. Atheist Witches / Secular Pagans / Humanistic Pagans:
This is a well-established and growing segment within modern paganism. These individuals and communities explicitly state that they do not believe in literal gods or supernatural forces, but they engage in practices commonly associated with witchcraft or paganism for various reasons:
· Psychological and Self-Help: Many use rituals, spellwork, meditation, and connection to nature as tools for personal growth, self-empowerment, emotional regulation, and psychological well-being. The "magic" is seen as a way to focus intention, leverage the power of the mind (like the placebo effect), or create meaningful symbolic experiences.
Real Examples: You can find countless individuals on platforms like Reddit (e.g., r/SASSWitches - "Skeptic, Agnostic, Atheist, and Science-friendly Witches"), TikTok, and personal blogs who identify this way. They often share their personal practices, which might include celebrating the Wheel of the Year (solstices, equinoxes) as natural cycles, working with herbs for their known properties, or creating altars as focal points for reflection rather than worship.
· Connection to Nature and Environmentalism: For many, the practices are about fostering a deep, respectful, and reciprocal relationship with the Earth and its ecosystems, often informed by scientific understanding. They might view "nature" itself as a powerful, awe-inspiring force, but not a deified one.
Real Example: John Halstead is a prominent author and voice in the "naturalistic paganism" movement. He writes extensively on humanistic and naturalistic approaches to paganism, emphasizing a non-supernatural worldview while embracing pagan practices for their psychological, ecological, and community benefits. He's been involved in initiatives like "A Pagan Community Statement on the Environment."
· Cultural and Ancestral Connection: Some are drawn to the aesthetic, historical, or cultural aspects of witchcraft and pagan traditions, finding meaning in ancestral practices or folkloric elements without a literal belief in their supernatural underpinnings.
2. Atheists in Cult-like Groups (Non-Religious, Ideological, or Self-Improvement Cults):
This category is more sensitive, as "cult" is often a pejorative term. However, sociologically, a "cult" is defined by characteristics like high levels of control over members, charismatic leadership, isolation, and often exploitative practices, regardless of whether a deity is involved. Atheists can be susceptible to these groups just like anyone else, as the appeal isn't religious, but ideological, psychological, or social.
· Self-Help/Personal Development Groups Accused of Cult-like Behavior: There have been various organizations in the "human potential" or "self-help" industry that have been accused of cult-like tactics. These groups often promise radical personal transformation, success, or enlightenment through intensive, expensive programs, and can exert immense pressure and control over participants. Their "philosophy" is often secular, focusing on mindset, energy, or personal "breakthroughs."
Example: Landmark Worldwide (formerly EST) has faced numerous accusations of being cult-like due to its high-intensity seminars, confrontational methods, and pressure on participants to recruit others. While it doesn't involve deity worship, it exhibits many characteristics of a high-control group.
Example: Some multi-level marketing (MLM) companies can foster cult-like environments, particularly at higher levels, with charismatic leaders, intense motivational events, and a strong "us vs. them" mentality against "outsiders" who don't understand their "opportunity." The focus is on wealth and success, not spiritual salvation.
· Political or Ideological Cults: Historically, and in some current extreme forms, political or ideological movements can develop cult-like devotion to a leader or a specific ideology, demanding absolute loyalty and conformity.
Example (Historical, illustrating the potential for secular cults): While having some spiritual undertones in practice, movements like Jim Jones's Peoples Temple (before its tragic end) initially attracted members with a blend of Christian and socialist ideals, focusing on social justice and community building. The cultic elements emerged through Jim Jones's charismatic control and the group's isolation, not necessarily through a traditional deistic belief. It demonstrates how a focus on a charismatic human leader and a powerful ideology can create a cult, regardless of the presence of a god.
Fringe Political Groups: Certain radical political groups (on either end of the spectrum) can develop cult-like characteristics, where members are isolated, indoctrinated, and encouraged to cut ties with dissenting friends or family, all in service of the political cause or leader.
In essence, atheism defines what a person doesn't believe (no gods). It doesn't define everything they do believe or how they engage with the world, human psychology, or group dynamics. Therefore, it's entirely possible for an atheist to engage in practices often labeled "witchcraft" (especially in a secular or psychological sense) or to become involved in a high-control, non-religious group that functions like a cult.
So back to Grok, Do you have real living examples?
Yes, some individuals today identify as atheists while exploring occult beliefs. For instance, certain members of modern pagan or Wiccan communities reject gods but engage in rituals or magic. A 2022 survey noted that about 2% of U.S. atheists show interest in such practices. Specific names are hard to pin down publicly, as many keep their beliefs private. If you want, I can search for more recent examples or analyze related online discussions.
So, now you know. Many of those holier-than-thou atheists have come full circle into the arms of the devil.
